Skeptomania - Paranormal / UFOs, etc.

Cat Nip

http://www.whatwouldronaldreagando.com/webpages/inperspective/domesticspying.htm

Yaish · Intel Chief

Nice find Cat.

asmodee

I'm sorry, but I'm just not an "ends justify the means" kind of guy. Just because they got the results they wanted does not mean they got there like Americans. In China you could get there like that and it would be okay. I don't live in China. There are lots of countries where one person decides who has rights and who doesn't. The form of government in those countries is called a dictatorship. I grew up near the end of the cold war and it was crammed down my throat my whole childhood how evil other forms of government were, so you'll have to forgive me if I am disgusted rather than patriotic when it comes to throwing away what it means to be in a democracy and what it means to be an American because it might turn out for the better in the end. You'll need to excuse my revulsion at the idea that "checks and balances" are nothing more than ideas taught in grade school. And you'll need to pardon my idealistic belief that if one man can simply take all the control he wants and forgo whatever rights he likes that all the men and women who ever gave their lives for my country and my freedom died for nothing, because Chinese, German or American, a dictator is a dictator. That so many people are willing to put their faith totally in the government and give up whatever freedoms asked of them because the government says it's for the best in the Land of the Free is deeply saddening. If your freedoms can be taken by one man at any time they are no longer "freedoms" or "rights". They become "privileges". Last time I knew the Star Spangled Banner didn't call America "The Land of the Currently Privileged".

I'm sorry, I know it can't be so, but I still EXPECT my country to be the great nation I was taught it was in grade school. I know it's stupid, but I can't help it. I was brought up with a great pride in my country and to see our leaders take any less pride in it is depressing.

murphy · Horse Nazi

I agree with most of what is being said here, but do not forget that the U.S. is no longer the biggest consumer. (like in the 70's.)
China and India have passed us in that department. Supply and demand will keep rising.

Cat Nip

Just because they got the results they wanted does not mean they got there like Americans.

But they are/were, so they did.

I just think that if we get some new blood maybe we'll get a president who actually follows the rules.

Good luck with that, because I see nary a perfect politician in sight.

paul68 · Shaved Ape

Lincoln did not start the civil war, and under under false pretenses. Further, he was handling a CIVIL War. A miltary action within which has no resemblance to Bush's "war on terror".

He was also well known for his clemency and pardons, going so far as to issue a declaration of Amnesty and Clemency for any in the rebellion willing to pledge oath to the constitution and federal laws. For this, the DEMOCRATS criticized Lincoln as abusing the Constitution, and being dictatorial. Republicans attacked him because he was viewed as too soft and forgiving.

Further, the military arrests of civilians during the civil war by the Union were entirely justified by the FACT, that the south was heavily active in espionage and sabotage against the north, and it was almost impossible to defintively identify the enemy. IN addition, the Union was very frail and nothing less than the country itself was at stake. The arrests made durinng the civil war under Lincolns authority denied further seccecessions and fragmenting of the Union. In other words, he arrested those who would have been a danger to the security of the country.

Add in that later, most of these arrests amounted to either confessions of guilt, or convcitions, with many simply released shortly after arrest when found inncocent or lacking proof and it becomes clear the paralells between Lincoln and Bush simply don't exist beyond wording. What can Bush claim his actions have achieved? Has he got a large percentage of proven spies, sabatours, terrorists and sympathizers who would have been a serious threat had they not been detained? Or does he have a large number of undefined prisoners, who most likely are run of the mill west hating middle easterners who got caught rather than shot? If your'e going to take war prisioners, you HAVE to at least have a plan for what to do with them. Lincoln personally oversaw and took a hand in many of the cases in his instance. How many has Bush handled?

Lincoln had a clear danger to address, what does Bush have? Enemies who have always been present, and never would have been much of an issue, had he not created an unneccesary military action. Afghanistan sure, but we see just how important the real conflict is for the Bush administation when we see his complete shift of focus from the primary perpetrator of 9/11 to a two bit dictator who couldn't even threaten his own nieghbors anymore.

That article is crap.

asmodee

Simple word play. The meaning of what I said was clear.

I neither ask for nor expect perfection, but I think those chosen to lead us should certainly be attempting perfection. There's no such thing as a perfect parent, either, but that doesn't mean I don't at least try to do everything right with my kids.

"Of the people, by the people, for the people" means that someone with a 31% approval rating should be listening to the damned people. Otherwise it's "Of the president, by the president, for your own good." If that's what it is, then just fucking say that. But don't tell me I'm free and spell out my freedoms only take them as you see fit. If I'm not free, tell me I'm not free. If the president has the power to anything he wants then don't call him "president". Call him "emperor" or "king". What pisses me off is the pretending that we have all these wonderful freedoms which nobody can step on only to find our very government stepping on them every day. If our personal rights and freedoms are whatever the current czar says they are then just come out and say it instead of hiding behind patriotic ideas whose meaning began to be twisted almost before the ink dried.

I'm sorry, but our government is bloated and corrupt. There is almost nobody out there looking out for us, yet so many people are willing to stand up and defend their actions. I have no idea why that is. The only assumption that I can make is that it's party politics. As far as I'm concerned, having a bad Republican president or a bad Democrat president or a bad Independent president is all the same damned thing. In the end, there's still a piece of crap in the office. But we have become complacent and comfortable, so we put up with it. Some of us have convinced ourselves that it will be better when our party gets back in office or, if our party is in office, it's not really so bad. He's not a bad guy. He's just doing what he has to for the good of America. That is such bull shit, but people buy it more often than not these days.

paul68 · Shaved Ape

I was just disgusted by the sheer gall of tryng to compare Bush to two true American presidential icons. Bush is nothing of the sort.

The problems with our government have been manifest and growing for some time. It's been easy just as you say Asmo, to be complacent and rationalizing, because the problems did not have such a great impact on so many so quickly. With the installation of the Bush admin, we've seen exploitation and corruption of unprecedented levels from top to bottom. The effects have been nothing less than disasturous on several fronts. Diplomatic, Economic, Militarily, Civilly. Bush is very much like the kid turned loose in the candy shop.

If he was really concerned, he'd have long ago done what is being called for now by our pantywaist democratic congress and worked to reign in the rampant artificial inflation of oil prices, and make the energy companies accountable.

Instead, all we've heard from Bush is about supply and demand, drilling more, and simple lip service to conservation, efficiency, alternatives and the like. When out the other side of his mouth he is dropping enviromental regulations for big oil, giving tax breaks to the most profitable companies, opening access to previously protected lands, and relaxing regulations rather than strengthening them, and making it impossible to even try pursuing any kind of accountability for any of these companies when they get caught pulling their bullshit. Then of course he provides meager funding for research into alternatives, and fires anyone who's work doesnt fit with his plans. It's been a very bad 8 years if your a scientist with a government contract.

Yeah, amazing how our democrat congress can't get anything done they've said they would. I mean, they've got GW in there to help them get the job done right? It's not like he's fought tooth and nail with refusals, threatend veto's and vetos anything they try to get enacted. What else could they want? Heck, the Bush admin is so open and forthright, nobody could ever fault them for anything. It's just those crybaby liberal pinkos ya know. They're not like us other Americans.

Rolling Eyes

asmodee · Last edited by asmodee on Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

Paul, I was in the middle of posting when you posted, so I had not yet read your post when mine went on. Finally, you and I agree completely on something. I don't want to look at my country and say, "At least it's the shiniest turd in the pool". I want it to be more than that and I don't care what people got away with in the past or whether it ended up for the better or worse. If I kill six kids but it ended up stopping some major disaster killing millions, I still killed six kids and I still have to pay for that. Let me see a president willing to take some prison time for raping the Constitution upon which my country was founded and only THEN I will respect him for it.

Speaking of that, he also gave the pope immunity from prosecution for covering up rampant child molestation in the Catholic church by simply shifting dangerous priests to other small towns. I don't care how the hell you spin that, the man's a piece of shit who cares more about having friends amongst powerful foreign leaders than our own children right here at home.

paul68 · Shaved Ape

I wasnt criticizing or even really commenting on your post Asmo.

asmodee

Dammit, Paul, I was in the middle of editing that, posted it and saw that you beat me again!

Cat Nip

You can't compare a war on terror to any other kind of war.

Are you referring to Clinton as an icon?? Do you want to discuss a corrupt administration? Heh.

paul68 · Shaved Ape

Why are you spoiling for a fight Cat?

So, we went into Iraq to wage a war on terror? I don't recall that being the selling point back when Bush was looking to attack before he even got the job done with Afghanistan. And yes, in fact I do Cat. I want to discuss a corrupt Bush administration, and not spend the next 3 pages arguing over whether Clinton is a POS cause he got a hummer, or his wife a criminal cause she might have used inside info on a real estate deal.

Yeah, lets talk about Haliburton, Enron, cuts to veteran benefits, firing of US attorneys, Cheney, Rove, Libby, and Valerie Plame. Lets talk about invading Iraq, when Afghanistan was nowhere near finished.

Lets talk about the WMD's that dont exist, the intelligence that never said there were any. Let's talk about the bogus Yellowcake evidence known to be bogus that Bush used.

Lets talk about the fact that the "Center for the Study of the Presidency (Jones-Pickering), the Atlantic Council, and the National Defense University concluded that Afghanistan has been neglected and is in danger of becoming a failed state." And still Bush basically ignores it.

Lets talk about how no matter what, he's gonna get Osama, and yet hasn't had a whole heck of a lot to say about it since less than a year after making that promise.

Lets talk about no bid contracts and his admins ties to those contractors who got them. Then we'll talk about how later those contractors were found to be grossly overcharging, then basically given a free pass by the Bush to avoid prosecution.

Lets talk about Katrina, and Bush's days late promise of aid, which amounted to jack shit, and was promptly ate by, you guessed it, no bid contractors.

Lets talk about BUsh and Cheney letting big oil "assist" in writing energy policy, and draft regulatory legislation.

Lets talk about Bush's a censorship and or removal of scientists and research commissioned by his own administration that went against his chosen beliefs on religion and environment. Lets talk about George C. Deutsch.

Lets talk about how during his presidency, the national debt grew to over 9 trillion dollars, when all the while he was touting how great his economic plans would be, after starting out with a surplus.

Lets talk about how Bush and cheney fought tooth and nail against the 9/11 comission, then hinderd their efforts every chance they got.

Lets talk about how the comissions findings and recommendations were not implemented until a Democratic congress did it themselves.

Lets talk about his administration trying to give the security contracts for our major ports to Dubai, a well known haven for terrorists, that refuses to cooporate in identifying them, or assist in denying them access to their funds. Dubai is known as a central money laundering point for terrorist organisations. Luckily that one died. Even his administration realized THAT one wouldnt fly.

What about the "Lost White House E-mails"?

What about Cheney, Scalia and the Sierra Club lawsuit?

I think thats enough to get the idea. The list of corruption, cronyism, and lawlessness in the Bush administration can literally fill pages upon pages.

Simply invoking the name "Clinton" isnt enough to even think of countering it.

Raven · Google Meister

i wouldn't mind so much, 'cept this thread was misplaced in Open, and i don't like argueing in Open... it just isn't right...

Cat Nip

WTF?? Oh, so now it's a fight and not a debate or discussion, huh? Lol.

Pfft. She's all yours, Yaish. This place officially sucks.