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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:33 am |
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| Yaish |
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Humans actually can survive without tools, but it becomes more difficult of course. That's what tools are after all, they are manufactured devices that either multiply forces or serve in lieu of natural appendages.
Are we more advanced? Sure, if there is a particular goal we are working towards. Being human we naturally see the direction we are traveling and say "There - That is where evolution is heading and we're the furthest along that path!"
Not necessarily so however. From a strict survival of the species aspect we lag far, far behind almost every insect species out there, as well as much of the plant kingdom. Bacteria of course has us all trumped. They were here first and they'll be here long after we are gone. Don't think their evolution stood still either. Sure, they've remained fairly simple one celled organisms but they have adapted to meet challenges the whole, from our natural immune system to designer drug cocktails or the body chemistry of a host of animals. As any engineer can tell you simple is better. (which doesn't mean the engineer won't want to fiddle with it)
The point is saying we are "advanced" means there is an end state that evolution is working towards, and I see no evidence of that. From what we do know of evolution the only thing we can really tell is that to "win" you have to produce descendants, who continue to produce descendants. Humans are doing alright so far as that is concerned, but we are newcomers on the block and aren't actually all that populous.
(as for animals being found in every environment, rats are right there with us. Maybe the space station is rat free, but that's about the only place humans have traveled that rats have not, and this despite our seeking to actively eradicate them) |
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... the kilt had concealed a blaster strapped to one thigh and a knife to the other. He was aware of the present gentle customs against personal weapons, but he felt naked without them. Such customs were nonsense anyhow, foolishment from old women - there was no such thing as "dangerous weapons," only dangerous people.
--Robert Heinlein in Methuselah's Children |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:41 am |
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| Zcat |
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The point is saying we are "advanced" means there is an end state that evolution is working towards, and I see no evidence of that.
I agree. |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:51 pm |
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| GSpoon |
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| Quote: | | The point is saying we are "advanced" means there is an end state that evolution is working towards, and I see no evidence of that. |
How do you figure that?
I don't see an end state and truth be told the very nature of evoolution means that a more advanced race or species will replace us. But at this point in time we are the most advanced in nearly every way we measure. We have technology, medicine, science, history, the ability to learn, teach, and develope that far exceeds any other animal species. Sorry, but a chimp with a sharp stick just doesn't even come close. |
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"Imperious, choleric, irascible, extreme in everything, with a dissolute imagination the like of which has never been seen, atheistic to the point of fanaticism, there you have me in a nutshell, and kill me again or take me as I am, for I shall not change"
Marquis de Sade |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:02 pm |
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| Zcat |
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Haven't crocodiles stopped changing in the last how many many many years? Why? Because they haven't needed to change for their benefit. That makes them highly evolved, doesn't it?
You can't compare apples and oranges. Each to our own, and our needs. |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:37 pm |
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| Yaish |
| Intel Chief |
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Gspoon said | Quote: | | But at this point in time we are the most advanced in nearly every way we measure. |
But that's only because we measure in areas where we excel. Our criteria are entirely subjective and based upon things we see as important, but may not be important at all.
Sure, we've developed computers but how does that keep the species alive? Evolution only cares if you pass on your genes and how far your line goes. Computers, culture, art, science, roads, porn, automobiles, etc... don't have much to do with that. Ok, maybe porn helps a little.
There are only a couple of ways to measure evolution. One would be to find a starting point, then measure how many mutations have occurred from that point until your target species. By that measure, almost every animal on earth, and certainly every bacteria and most plants are more evolved than humans.
Another way to measure is to see how well that species is adapted to it's environment. Well, we don't stack up so well there either. We manage through personal adaptations but a polar bear trumps us in the arctic, any fish or amphibian trumps us in the water, even rats beat us for most of the environments we live in.
Probably the last way to measure evolution would be to see how well that species exploits it's environment to survive. Here humans excel. but not not much more than ants, rats, even dogs. Roaches probably beat us too and things like bacteria and fungi do as well.
Humans are probably the most successful large mammal, and we achieve that in a remarkable way, but only in that strictly defined window of evolution. |
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... the kilt had concealed a blaster strapped to one thigh and a knife to the other. He was aware of the present gentle customs against personal weapons, but he felt naked without them. Such customs were nonsense anyhow, foolishment from old women - there was no such thing as "dangerous weapons," only dangerous people.
--Robert Heinlein in Methuselah's Children |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:23 pm |
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| Anonymouse |
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| The single most complex/advanced cell in the animal kingdom belongs to the humble jellyfish. |
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:34 am |
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| GSpoon |
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and yaish if you go back and read some of your own posts you answer your own question.
What seperates humans from animals?
Yeah, in reality we suck at surviving in nature, so we change it. We can swim real far so we build boats. We cant stand the cold so we wear clothes and build shealter and heat it. We can't take the heat so we create ac. Do computers make reproduction any easier? Not really, but no other animal uses them. No other animal builds the way we do. No other animal conqures the way we do.
in short no other animal has the intelligence that we do.
Whenever monkies, rats, dolphines, ants or what ever starts showing higher intelligence or technology, or understanding of science then maybe we wont be having this arguement. But they don't.
What sets us apart?
Our brains. |
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_________________
"Imperious, choleric, irascible, extreme in everything, with a dissolute imagination the like of which has never been seen, atheistic to the point of fanaticism, there you have me in a nutshell, and kill me again or take me as I am, for I shall not change"
Marquis de Sade |
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:24 am |
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| Marchosias |
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| Yaish wrote: | | Quote: | | But at this point in time we are the most advanced in nearly every way we measure. |
But that's only because we measure in areas where we excel. Our criteria are entirely subjective and based upon things we see as important, but may not be important at all.
Sure, we've developed computers but how does that keep the species alive? Evolution only cares if you pass on your genes and how far your line goes. Computers, culture, art, science, roads, porn, automobiles, etc... don't have much to do with that. Ok, maybe porn helps a little.
There are only a couple of ways to measure evolution. One would be to find a starting point, then measure how many mutations have occurred from that point until your target species. By that measure, almost every animal on earth, and certainly every bacteria and most plants are more evolved than humans.
Another way to measure is to see how well that species is adapted to it's environment. Well, we don't stack up so well there either. We manage through personal adaptations but a polar bear trumps us in the arctic, any fish or amphibian trumps us in the water, even rats beat us for most of the environments we live in.
Probably the last way to measure evolution would be to see how well that species exploits it's environment to survive. Here humans excel. but not not much more than ants, rats, even dogs. Roaches probably beat us too and things like bacteria and fungi do as well.
Humans are probably the most successful large mammal, and we achieve that in a remarkable way, but only in that strictly defined window of evolution. |
Well said. I've given you some karma  |
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:40 am |
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| Marchosias |
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| GSpoon wrote: | and yaish if you go back and read some of your own posts you answer your own question.
What seperates humans from animals?
Yeah, in reality we suck at surviving in nature, so we change it. We can swim real far so we build boats. We cant stand the cold so we wear clothes and build shealter and heat it. We can't take the heat so we create ac. Do computers make reproduction any easier? Not really, but no other animal uses them. No other animal builds the way we do. No other animal conqures the way we do.
in short no other animal has the intelligence that we do.
Whenever monkies, rats, dolphines, ants or what ever starts showing higher intelligence or technology, or understanding of science then maybe we wont be having this arguement. But they don't.
What sets us apart?
Our brains. |
Well, obviously the brains of other animals are structured differently to excel in tasks that facilitate their survival and continued contribution to reproduction.
There are birds, for example, that can outperform any human in task of memory, but it would be absurd to say that this trait separates them from animals.
When it comes down to it, humans can separate themselves from animals however they wish, but the criteria are meaningless when the diversity of life is considered, and the uniqueness of many organisms that have, or do, inhabit this planet is taken into consideration. |
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:08 pm |
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| TheMadHobbit |
| Subway Tolkien |
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| Anonymouse wrote: | | The single most complex/advanced cell in the animal kingdom belongs to the humble jellyfish. |
"humble"??? It is obvious you have never conversed with jellies!
In my experience I have found them to be the most arrogant, conceited and downright elitist of critters.
Fuck 'em I say. Them and the ants.
Uppity bastards! |
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"I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." |
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:22 pm |
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| chefkathleen |
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| Quote: | Fuck 'em I say. Them and the ants.
Uppity bastards! |
Mad you are too much!!!  |
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"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there's a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such twilight that we must be aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." - Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
PROUD MARINE WIFE!
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:33 pm |
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| Anonymouse |
| Living impaired |
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| What sort of of pipeweed gives you that, uh, skill? |
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:15 pm |
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| TheMadHobbit |
| Subway Tolkien |
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| Joined: 17 Oct 2005 |
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| Wouldn't YOU like to know, youngling! |
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_________________
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." |
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:21 am |
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| Yaish |
| Intel Chief |
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| Joined: 14 Oct 2005 |
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Speaking to animals was a short lived feature promoted in Bud Light. I thought they meant the beer, but this is Mad we are talking about so the "Bud" is probably something different.
And Thanks March for the karma! |
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... the kilt had concealed a blaster strapped to one thigh and a knife to the other. He was aware of the present gentle customs against personal weapons, but he felt naked without them. Such customs were nonsense anyhow, foolishment from old women - there was no such thing as "dangerous weapons," only dangerous people.
--Robert Heinlein in Methuselah's Children |
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:48 am |
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| TheMadHobbit |
| Subway Tolkien |
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Dr. Doolittle has nothing on me. He had to verbalize his conversations with the animals.
Me on the other hand, I imagine the whole damn thing, and you know what?
They are AWESOME conversations.
I certainly would rather be able to speak with a sloth or a chameleon than far too many humans I have encountered in my lifetime.
I mean, imagine discussing the differences in world perception with this dude:
But not ants. or Jellies...
Fuck THEM.
<3 Imagination! |
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_________________
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain." |
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